This issue started as a debate, and I decided to get my reader's opinions on this matter.
What do you think of a girl who is active online, be it via Facebook, twitter, blogs, or any combination of the above, yet doesn't want a guy who does the same?
I see both sides, but I have an opinion. Before I state it, I'd like to hear yours.
Is it a double standard? Or are things different for guys? (I do realize that the male response will be skewed, but try to stay open minded...)
25 comments:
perhaps such a girl feels that social media is bitul torah for a guy but not an issue for a girl. im not sure that i agree with this thinking, but i see their logic.
She can want anything she wants, and I won't judge ... but most likely she will have to wait longer for a shidduch. But it's worth it if that's what she wants - right?
A girl who is active online cannot demand a guy who is not. I think it is a double standard. The same is true for a girl or guy who watches TV and is looking for someone who does not. Frum Single Female's suggestion is interesting about bitul Torah, but I think the issue is more about lifestyle and hashkafa.
there's also the side that it's more dangerous for men online. Shmiras einayim isn't as much a big deal for a girl.
If one is on Facebook, they can't go around making demands, can they? It's really a matter of seeing what you are - look, you're that girl that goes on Facebook. You're that kid that has a blog. You are in no position to make demands, especially if there are enough men out there who's hair would curl if they knew of the girl's hobbies. I'm on Facebook, but I don't have a blog. I'm okay with a guy on Facebook, but not jazzed about the blog. I think I'm being fair.
I can see both sides.
Although I don't necessarily agree I think frum society is less critical of girls who read books, use internet, and some other things. I concur that the reason may be that bochurim are expected to be devoting all their time to either learning, or doing something else avodas hashem related. Could also be because the internet is more dangerous for men.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the matter, but I have a problem with one of the above comments (sorry Musing Maidel): "Shmiras einayim isn't as much a big deal for a girl."
Do you have a source for that? I'm curious...because every rav I've spoken to about that, and by that I mean every, and there have been quite a few, has stated that there is no difference. (Can't state names, do to who I am.) We, as girls, have just as much of a chiyuv to watch our eyes.
I concur that the reason may be that bochurim are expected to be devoting all their time to either learning, or doing something else avodas hashem related.
And a girl could spend her time attending women's shiurim, tutoring young girls in limudai kodesh, visiting the sick, and doing other chessed. If she feels she needs Facebook and blogging to unwind from her busy life of work and/or college, why shouldn't a boy need a way to unwind too?
@LS
I don't exactly have a source. When I said that shmiras einayim isn't as much of a big deal for a girl, I meant that women aren't over a lav deoraisa by seeing things online. Men are (or at least can be). Hashkafically, it may not be correct, and obviously, we shouldn't be looking at certain things, but it's not against halacha as far as I know. It is possible that I'm wrong - I've never actually discussed it with a rav - just my husband.
@tesyaa
I never said I agree with this double standard, I just said that I understand its source.
b'etzem your right.
דעלך סני לחברך לא תעביד
dont do to another what you would not wish done to you
Maybe it's a double standard, but I did it anyway, for reasons already mentioned here. (mainly because the challenges are harder for the men, and also because I was dating men who would/should otherwise be learning - maybe it's different if they're in the business market and have what to gain by going online) So maybe I'm a two-faced hypocrite, but I'm ok with that in this case ;-)
Little Sheep, I think the difference is not in the importance of watching one's eyes but rather more in the nature of people and the nature of the internet. While there are exceptions to every stereotype, the temptations you find online are likely to be much more dangerous to men than women. IMHO. Also, in theory you can say neither men nor women should look at inappropriate things but the fact is that men risk additional aveiros when they start seeing the wrong things. Hameivin yavin.
I'd venture to say quite the opposite. A girl that is more active online vs a guy is actually being less tznua then a guy is. For a guy to do so, its not a big deal - men are supposed to be out there "getting things done." Women are supposed to be more internal/tznua.... and being spread aroudn the internet is actually more of a problem. >> Most comments seemed to focus on the "should he or she be online in the first place" aspect vs the fact that they are both already online and now we can deem their "online presence" via facebook, blogs, twitter.... as acceptable or not. = "Is it ok to be in the public limelight of the internet" vs "Is it ok to use the internet"
I don't think it's a double standard for a girl who is active online to want a guy who doesn't use the internet because girls can have easy access to the web, whether it's because they work in an office or need to be able to go online for college/schoolwork. Many of these girls will still want a learning boy - and a boy who is truly what they are looking for should not and would not spend time online on blogs, Facebook, twitter etc.
It really depends on the girl and what she is looking for. A guy who is learning should be able to find other ways to "unwind" - what did they do before the internet was around? There's books, music, friends and enough ways to keep a guy busy and let him relax without him having to go online...
When a guy is online, besides for bittul torah, he will also see images that will make him violate v'lo sasuru acharei...einichem - which by the way applies to girls as well. Girls should not think that just because they go online they can look at images, pictures and videos and it will not impact them. The things they see will remain imprinted in their minds forever and you can't get rid of them.
So even if a girl is spending time online, she should be careful with what she looks at, reads and sees because it will remain embedded in her memory forever.
Done with my mussar schmooze.
MM-LS is right. Shmiras einayim is just as much an issue for girls as it is for boys when it comes to the internet. The passuk I quoted before says it straight out. Yes, there's a difference between the affect these images can have on a guy and a girl but it is still assur for both of them.
Bring Back The Cupcakes!
Why do you gals spend so much time online anyway? You can say it's for all the Torah articles you read, but really, it's all gossip & fun. You girls should find other ways to unwind just like you expect the guys to: listen to Jewish music, read some nice Jewish books.
"A guy who is learning should be able to find other ways to "unwind" - what did they do before the internet was around? There's books, music, friends and enough ways to keep a guy busy and let him relax without him having to go online... "
Why are you differentiating between the internet and books and music and friends? Aside from shmiras eynayim which is a seperate issue, why should internet usage be viewed as a lower quality usage of time?
And why for guys but not for girls?
Bz-you make a very good point. I've never thought about it that way but you are right. Girls are not meant to be "out there" and in the limelight.
This is one of the issues I have with blogs that publicize every little detail of ones life. People don't realize where to draw the line and when to stop telling the world things that are private, sensitive and honestly, none of anyone else's business...especially since any stranger can stop by and read.
FbM-you do have a point there. The internet is a dangerous place for everyone. One thing people may not realize (even though they do know it subconsciously) is the tremendous amount of time that can be wasted while spending it online. A book has an end, you get to the last page and you are done. The internet is not like that. You start to read and then there's a link to another site...with links to other sites...and so you can spend endless amounts of time online and before you know it the day/night is gone! Wasting time is an issue for guys and gals too and the internet is a perfect way for one to fall prey to bittul zman.
As for why it is a lower quality usage of time - I don't know why that is such a question. There's so much garbage available online and it just takes a click of the mouse to land up in the wrong place. When you pick up a book to read or take out a CD to listen to, you know what you have in your hands. (If it's something you shouldn't be reading or listening to, that's a separate issue.) But when you go online, you may not know where you'll land up - and that's very dangerous.
Your points are very valid and you may be correct, that it's just as much an issue for guys as it is for girls but I guess I was looking at it from the perspective of should they be online in the first place and once they are online is it okay for them to read blogs, use facebook, twitter etc.
Honestly, the internet has a lot of dangers - when using it, proceed with caution.
I think I've said my piece.
I don't think a double standard exists here either way. I know guys who have facebook who are looking for non-facebook users. It's a matter of personal preferences.
You can take it one step further. Guys who have female friends on facebook looking for a girl who doesn't have male friends and vice versa. It all depends on what you prefer.
Why don't you ask the question the other way around now? Is it a double standard for a guy who uses internet to be looking for a girl that doesn't use internet? I personally feel that neither one is a double standard. People can always have there opinions why it is different for the other person, and they are entitled to that opinion. If they don't manage to find someone who fits their standards it will be their own problem.
Can we now get the author's opinion?
Double standard definitely. Controlling even.
Temptation is found everywhere. It is character, principles, integrity, and values that dictate whther on is tempted.
While understandable, i think maybe a girl who does not want him to be using the internet should not be active on it either. Of course there are levels of 'active'. Facebook is one thing as it can be utilitarian for keeping up with friends. Blogging not as much. Twitter even less.
If her objection is about his bittul zman, then I understand it less, because the same way he should be using his time more constructively, she should as well. If her objection is that he may view inappropriate sites, get a filter. Either way, she may attempt to justify her inconsistency, but she is being inconsistent (which she may be fine with that too)
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